Transparency data

PABEW meeting minutes, 9 May 2022

Updated 4 September 2024

Applies to England and Wales

Members present via video conference:

• Independent Chair - Julia Mulligan

• PABEW Secretariat - Chris Moore

• National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) - Clair Alcock, Jeremy Vaughan, Stella Brooks

• Police Federation of England and Wales (PFEW) - Alex Duncan, Calum Macleod, Nameerah Hameed (in attendance), John Partington, Elaine Parker (in attendance)

• Police Superintendents’ Association (PSA) - Dan Murphy, Eamonn Carroll, Duncan Slade

• Chief Police Officers’ Staff Association (CPOSA) - Shabir Hussain

• Association of Police and Crime Commissioners (APCC) - Andrew Tremayne

• Home Office (HO) - Frances Clark, Emma Plummer, Sally Hasselby

• College of Policing (CoP) - Thomas Grove, Sandy Purewal, Chris Price, Isaac Holmes

• MET Trade Union - Valerie Harris

• Department of Justice Northern Ireland - Amanda Montgomery

Welcome and apologies

1. The chair welcomed everyone. Apologies were received from Judith Whitaker (CoP).

Minutes of the meeting 1 February 2022

2. Minutes were agreed from 1 February meeting.

Action point 1: Secretariat to finalise minutes of 1 February meeting and publish on webpage.

Action log of 1 February 2022

The Chair went through the action log of 1 February meeting, which has been updated in the light of the discussion. Key points discussed were:

Action point 2: HO/staff associations/CoP to attend the working group and work through CoP concerns.

3.The Chair explained the action would be covered later in the meeting, but that the working group had taken place on 28 March 2022.

Action point 3: Frances Clark (HO) to speak to GAD and write to Alex Duncan (PFEW) on progress of 2020 Valuation.

4. All members were content to close this action.

Action point 4: Frances Clark (HO) to check the progress of the response to the PSA section 23 letter.

5. Frances Clark (HO) explained she would pick the action up with Dan Murphy at a later date.

Action point 5: Frances Clark (HO) to provide update on ill health and injury on duty.

6. The Chair was content to close the action.

Action point 6: NPCC to provide an update on Tapping v MOD Age discrimination ruling.

7. Stella Brook said an advice note had gone out to all forces via Chief’s Net which would be circulated to PABEW and agreed with the Chair the action could be closed.

Action point 7: Frances Clark (HO) to have further engagement with staff associations on immediate detriment (ID).

8. Frances Clark (HO) said there are several ongoing legal challenges on ID and HO was actively looking at how to respond to those challenges. HO recognised there was a while before remedy was due to come into play and it was not an ideal position, but said in the future, they would look to hold conversations with NPCC as employer representatives and staff associations. Clair Alcock (NPCC) added they had taken legal advice on behalf of scheme managers and chief constables and that advice confirmed that the powers of section 61 were not strong enough to overcome the challenges of correcting tax issues without the occupying legislative changes that were needed via the HMT directions, amendments to the Finance Act 2004 and the tax legislation changes. Therefore, the legal advice was ID could not be completed at that time. Dan Murphy (PSA) said if the government was not planning to change its position, staff associations need to know what will happen to ensure that everything was in place by October 2023 and what the plan would be post October 2023 to effectively communicate to their affected members. Frances Clark (HO) said HO had circulated a high-level timeline and broadly, it was a set of policy instructions from the Treasury that in the next few weeks they would be able to communicate with the staff associations the implementation for the police scheme specifically.

9. Alex Duncan (PFEW) said what had happened so far did not amount to consultation and asked when the formal consultation would be expected to start. Frances Clark (HO) explained the central policies had been set by the Treasury and the HO would not be able to unpick remedy. But certain areas would allow the implementation of the policy in the way that was deemed most constructive and stated there would then be a formal consultation process on the regulations. Dan Murphy (PSA) said it was a false consultation because of the way the process had been set up. Pointing out that all parties may adamantly agree that the Treasury direction would not be in the best interest of the police pension scheme, but there was nothing the HO or staff associations would be able to do about it and that could lead to a challenge that could affect the timescales.

10. Clair Alcock (NPCC) explained on Treasury directions that HMT see the difference between the act, high-level policy which was consulted on and treasury directions which were not. Clair agreed that for a locally administered scheme which had to be applied 43 times it must be thought through very carefully and until the Treasury directions were released, they would not be able to know that it was correct.

11. On implementation, Clair Alcock (NPCC) said the impression that on 1 October 2023 everything would immediately be done was wrong and that work for administrators would start from October 2023. She said the software suppliers are confident in their implementation plans and that the forces and the administrators are gathering all necessary data.

Action point 8: The Chair to meet with Craig Guildford (NPCC) to discuss NPCC policy position on LQC’s.

12. The Chair explained would be covered in the Discipline Sub-committee update and could be closed.

Action point 9: Stella Brooks (NPCC) to arrange a meeting between The Chair and Jeremy Vaughan.

13. The chair explained that meeting would take place on the following Wednesday.

Action point 10: Emma Plummer (HO) to add attestation question to the HO legislation tracker.

14. Emma Plummer (HO) explained this action was completed.

15. Outstanding action point James Walker (CoP) to provide an overview of protected characteristic (race, sex, age, disability) data in relation to PEQF and looking at the overall ambition in vision 2025 The Chair noted the planned presentation and papers was on the agenda.

Matters arising

16. None raised.

Update from College of Policing

Chris Price and Isaac Holmes CoP talked through 2 circulated papers before the meeting. The 2021 Workforce Census key findings and PEQF Diversity, Equality and Inclusion Priorities. For further details please look through these documents.

17. Chris Price (COP) started by talking through the statistics on new joiner entry and explained the paper went to the PEQF board in February. He said the police workforce census collected individual level data on all workers in the police service and was different to the alternative data collection mechanism the HO used which provided aggregate data. New joiner entry categories within the census would allow the CoP to take the data from the HO, for their own work that looked at the protected characteristics of those on the new entry routes.

18. He explained that the census data provided a snapshot of the workforce on the 31 March 2021. CoP’s key findings from their work on the data concluded that the percentage of new joiners from ethnic minority backgrounds on the new entry routes (10.8%) was similar to that on IPLDP (11.1%). Of all the entry routes, DHEP had the highest percentage of new joiners from an ethnic minority background. But when looking further into DHEP as a category on its own, the percentage of those from an ethnic minority background is higher at 13.6%. Breaking down DHEP further looking at the detective DHEP routes compared to the constable pathway it was more ethnically diverse, at 14.2%.

19. On gender, the percentage of female new joiners was higher on the new entry routes than on IPLDP 46% to 39% and, as with ethnicity, DHEP has a higher percentage of female new joiners.

20. For other protected characteristics where the census collects data, such as disability and sexual orientation, there was more unknown or absent data. Around 50% of the rest of the data on disability was unknown and likewise for sexual orientation, around 40% of the data is unknown. Chris Price (CoP) explained there was another stream of work that was looking to improve the consistency of data that would be collected from forces and reported back centrally.

21. The Chair noted on last page of the report it said it was not possible to conclude any difference in the demographics of joiners in the new entry routes but there were strong imperatives on improving diversity of the workforce. Chris said CoP wanted to look at ethnicity pre-PEQF routes and post- pre- PEQF routes, but as they were in the middle of an implementation phase those comparisons were more difficult.

22. Chris Price (CoP) said stats only paint part of the picture and entry routes do not form a causal relationship with increases or decreases with different characteristics. He said you must also factor in attraction and what kind of support is being put in place by forces through the recruitment processes.

23. Isaac Holmes (CoP) said it is important to have a more representative workforce that aligns with the right skills, powers, and experience to meet challenging requirements by 2025 and that they are on target to achieve that.

24. He noted some challenges remain, such as the disparity in forces across PEQF with the Met disproportionately accounting towards the IPLDP total by having a higher proportion of ethnic minority officers, meaning the ethnic minority total was likely to be artificially higher.

25. Isaac Holmes (CoP) said sex is not expected to be significantly different as it is broadly similar across forces, but ethnicity would show a significant difference.

26. He said there are encouraging signs from the graduate entry routes and they would look at what is appealing to students from ethnic minority backgrounds and women and not take the findings for granted.

27. Isaac Holmes (CoP) said looking forward the focus would be on data analysis and evaluation which would involve engaging directly with student officers and officers who have completed PEQF programs. The aim is to develop a nuanced understanding of people’s experiences of why certain routes are appealing or not appealing, and to ensure the program is inclusive and meets every officer’s needs, as well linking with the CoP and NPCC plan of action on inclusion and race.

28. Another focus of CoP was reasonable adjustments. Isaac Holmes (CoP) said there was anecdotal evidence that some officers had difficulties accessing reasonable adjustments for exams. Student officers had a more straightforward experience in terms of applying for reasonable adjustments and they want to ensure that it was consistent across the country.

29. CoP will also look at the exit interview process, as the data is poor and they need to get a better understanding of why people are leaving in order to put meaningful strategies in place. This will aid understanding of what’s going on in the country and locally and will allow for the implementation of meaningful interventions. Isaac Holmes (CoP) confirmed that there is going to be an end to end recruitment EIA opposed to one that was broken off into specific areas. He said they aim to create something that is fully comprehensive covering the candidate journey from the start of applying through to the end.

30. Val S Harris (Met trade Union) noted that the Met do not have representation with Unison and therefore don’t get represented on the Police Staff Council nationally. Val said they had a diverse group of employees, especially PCSOs and said the CoP could engage with them via Metis and sometimes the disability staff support associations can be rather police centric and chaired by officers.

31. The Chair thanked Isaac Holmes and Chris Price for the update.

Police pensions update

32. Shabir Hussain (CPOSA) raised the outstanding issue of the commutation cap from January’s informal meeting. He reminded the meeting of its history; particularly that the principle of its removal was agreed by the HO. However, despite the NPCC and the staff associations being in agreement that it ought to funded through the pension account, the HO stated it should come out of the general force budget. He requested confirmation as to what legal power was being used to compel the chief constable to fund a pension payment in such a manner.

33. Frances Clark (HO) said the position on the commutation cap hadn’t changed. If this was to change the HO would need a compelling business case that focused on the workforce impact, how that would be managed and the full implications would need to be considered.

34. Shabir suggested that the disagreement was how the cap would be funded He questioned again the legal powers that compel chief constables to financially account for it from their own fund and not the pension fund.

35. Daniel Murphy (PSA) said chiefs were worried about the impact on uplift. Clair Alcock (NPCC) said in the interest of establishing clarity on the employer position, the NPCC had explored the effects of the removal of the cap (regardless of funding) and concluded that it would be difficult for employers to support due the impact on uplift numbers.

36. Shabir said the first thing that needs to be established is the legal basis for funding decisions, a question which has been outstanding for 2 years. This is particularly important as it is one of the outstanding matters blocking the reinstatement of SAB. A second issue being the pensions trap, on which there has been no movement either. The Chair agreed with Shabir it should be recorded as an action.

Action point 2: HO to clarify to CPOSA what the legal position is regarding funding the commutation cap.

Discipline Sub-Committee (DISC) update

37. The Chair said there was a DISC meeting held on the 21 April and most of the conversation focused on legally qualified chairs and related matters. The Chair said John Bassett had met with the minister, after which the position remained the same. The Chair said John also met with the PSA and the Police Federation of England and Wales to discuss immunity in relation to their members involvement in proceedings.

38. The Chair said she thought the situation had not changed, although there were ongoing discussions concerning the practical implications of the LQC decision.

39. There was also a discussion around misconduct hearings and accelerated misconduct hearings and their use in relation to the minister’s letter, which was clarified.

40. The meeting also held a discussion on the backlog of cases held by the IOPC following the finalisation of their decisions and the knock-on impact of other agencies work and how greater transparency could be achieved on the issue.

PABEW secondment working group update

41. The Chair explained the working group was held on 28 March and comments from the CoP and HMRC would be integrated into the document and then a small subset of people would meet to work through the document in detail. Sandy Purewal (CoP) asked for a follow up meeting to be set up.

Home Office legislation update

42. Emma Plummer (HO) said that HO had cleared the backlog of most of the simple changes and was planning to focus on pursuing the backlog of the more complicated changes. Emma said she would likely be in touch with Elaine Parker (PFEW policy officer) and the NPCC on a few matters and that would be the HO priority over the next few months.

AOB and date of next meeting

The next meeting is on 28 July.

	Actions	Date of the meeting	Who/date to be completed by	Status – to be updated and re-circulated before the next meeting
1	Action point 1: Secretariat to finalise minutes of 1 February meeting and publish on webpage.	9 May 2022	Secretariat	Completed
2	Action point 2: HO to clarify to CPOSA what the legal position is regarding funding the commutation cap.	9 May 2022	Frances Clark (HO)	Completed

	Outstanding action points from previous meetings	Date of the meeting	To be completed by	Status
5	James Walker (CoP) to provide an overview of protected characteristic (race, sex, age, disability) data in relation to PEQF and looking at the overall ambition in vision 2025 and whether it is being achieved.	28 October 2021	College of Policing	Completed Update provided for 9 May PABEW meeting.
4	Frances Clark (HO) promised to check the progress of the response to the PSA section 23 letter.	1 February 2022	Frances Clark (HO)	Completed
9	Action point 9: Stella Brooks (NPCC) to arrange a meeting between the Chair and Jeremy Vaughan.	1 February 2022	Frances Clark (HO)	Completed