Transparency data

PABEW meeting minutes, 9 May 2023

Updated 4 September 2024

Applies to England and Wales

Members present via video conference:

Independent Chair - Julia Mulligan

PABEW Secretariat - Chris Moore

Police Federation of England and Wales (PFEW) -
Gemma Fox 
Bahar Munim
Gemma Lofts

Police Superintendents’ Association (PSA) -
Dan Murphy
Paul Griffiths

Chief Police Officers’ Staff Association (CPOSA) -
Gareth Wilson 
Shabir Hussein

Association of Police and Crime Commissioners (APCC) - Andrew Tremayne

National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) -
Clair Alcock
Stella Brooks 

Home Office (HO) -
Alex Platts
Harriet Mackinlay
Emma Plummer
Sara Alderman
Carly Fry
     

College of Policing (CoP) - Sandy Purewal

Met Trade Union - Valerie Harris

His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) - Deborah Yeates

Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) - Kathie Cashell

Met Police - Mark Pomroy

Welcome and Apologies

1. The Chair welcomed everyone to the meeting and noted apologies from Duncan Slade (PSA).

Minutes of the meeting 2 February 2023

2. Minutes were agreed from the 2 February 2023 meeting, subject to one amendment on paragraph 11. (Action: completed). Action Point 1: Secretariat to finalise minutes of 2 February 2023 meeting and publish on the webpage.

Action log of 2 February 2023

3. The Chair noted there was only one action outstanding on PABEW Secondment guidance which was already on the agenda.

Matters arising (none raised)

College of Policing Update: PABEW Secondment Guidance

4. Sandy Purewal (CoP) explained that there had been separate working groups that attempted to work through the guidance. Some progress had been made to agree on the broad principles and take them forward. There was also agreement that attention needed to be brought to the fact that CoP were consistently applying for the central services allowance. But despite contributing to updated guidance on several occasions, it was disappointing that it had not been finalised in the last three years.

5. Following a discussion with their Board of Directors, CoP had decided to continue to pay the central service allowance as per the agreed ranked table in the current 2012 guidance until the new guidance was finalised despite their frustration with the lack of traction. The Chair said she shared the CoP’s frustrations with the lack of progress and acknowledged the efforts they had made to review the guidance.

6. Emma Plummer (HO) noted that CoP discussed with HMICFRS how they would move the work forward. Sandy Purewal (CoP) said that was true but had fed back their joint concerns on further clarity being required on some of the procedures on the allowance and the need for finessing travel claims expenses.

7. Deborah Yeates (HMICFRS) said there would be a further meeting held with Sandy Purewal (CoP) and was happy to continue to work through the procedure concerns and bring it back to the HO.

8. There was a discussion on who held the pen to write the guidance.

9. The CoP view was that they could not be the organisation to dictate the terms of the guidance or write it. Harriet Mackinlay (HO) said the HO had reached the end of their expertise in the matter and needed drafting, not finessing or further comments. Furthermore, it was PABEW guidance, not HO guidance, and therefore, they could not dictate the terms of the guidance. PFEW and PSA were in agreement with Sandy Purewal (CoP) that the CoP should not be the sole influencers of the guidance as they were not independent. HO position was a wider working group was needed as NPCC should also be involved.

10. Stella Brooks (NPCC) said she would be happy to assist with the drafting alongside the HO before bringing it to the staff associations to look at any outstanding issues in the working group. Emma Plummer (HO) explained that NPCC was sighted on the issue, and HO had two HR directors who also covered police staff ready to look at the document once the draft was in better shape.

12. The Chair relayed to members that Stella Brooks (NPCC) would pick up the pen and pull together a proper draft, reflecting a middle way between HMICFRS and the CoP. Once agreed, it would go to the HO for the HR directors to access before it was circulated to PABEW members. PABEW members agreed on the way forward.

13. The Chair proposed that the deadline for the draft to return to PABEW for approval was at the next meeting on 26 July 2023. Stella Brooks (NPCC) agreed to the plan.

Action Point 2: Stella Brooks (NPCC) to work on the PABEW Secondment guidance with the aim of returning with a draft for PABEW for the 26 July 2023 meeting. 

Police Pensions: UK Police Pensions Consultative Forum & Scheme Advisory Board Update.

NPCC/SMSG/GAD- Updates

14. The Chair explained a formal SAB took place on 3 April 2023, with updates from the NPCC, the Scheme Managers Steering Group (SMSG) and GAD.

15. The Chair said it was good for the SAB to have introductions from SMSG representatives and hear about their plans and what they hoped to achieve. The Chair said there was potential regarding the review that the NPCC had done to improve the overall systematic approach around police pensions and asked Clair Alcock (NPCC) when the broader findings of the review would be shared.

16. Clair Alcock (NPCC) said NPCC had shared the initial findings with a small group of CFOs from forces and was now looking to share with wider groups.  NPCC said that it would be shared with SAB. But they needed to ensure that ownership for making the changes stays with NPCC and Chiefs. NPCC said one of the findings was that the governance structures around police pensions needed to be revised, and how the NPCC would support change moving forward was one of the outcomes.

HO/Consultation SAB Response   

17. The Chair moved on to the 28 April SAB consultation response meeting. Clair Alcock (NPCC) had prepared drafts for SAB members to discuss, which were examined in detail.  It was agreed that the SAB would focus its response at a strategic level, and then the individual members of the SAB would submit their own responses to some of the questions and the regulations.

18. One of the underlying principles that the SAB was keen to promote through its response was the need for consistency. Dan Murphy (PSA) said the difficulty with the regulations was they referred back to the Treasury directions and the act, but when you look at those two documents, they did not provide the clarity needed.  He felt there needed to be a central interpretation. Because when there were problems, staff associations would go to the scheme Advisory Board and ask the HO who was responsible for writing the regulations. They would say staff associations needed their own legal advice, and then there were 43 scheme managers who the scheme Advisory Board did not bind.

19. PSA also questioned what the process was once the regs were finalised for correcting mistakes that were missed. They noted an EIA had yet to be shared with the draft regulations even though staff associations had raised the issue for 18 months.

20. Gemma Lofts (PFEW) agreed with the PSA points and said it was disappointing that so much was left to interpretation and said PFEW would support any clarity or amendments to the regulations that would remove those discretionary elements.

21. On EIA, Gemma Lofts (PFEW) noted the remedy was required due to a ruling on discrimination. That there was a question in the consultation that essentially asked respondents whether they could identify any discriminatory implications made a mockery of the fact discrimination had already been identified and the HO was supposed to be remedying it.

22. Clair Alcock (NPCC) agreed with the points raised and felt the consultation lacked strategic senior oversight.

23. Alex Platts (HO) thanked members for the comments raised and noted that not much could be said when the consultation was still out. He had discussed the need to set processes on how to fix issues in the future. It was something that the HO pensions team were aware of and was looking at for their formal response to the consultation.

24. On the EIA, HO would look at the responses to the consultation and then include as much information as possible before sharing it with stakeholders.

25. Dan Murphy (PSA) asked for confirmation that the regulations will be in place on 1 October so that those who retired on 2 October would retire on the correct pensions. Alex Platts (HO) confirmed that was what the HO were working towards.

Future Workplan and Resourcing

26. On the Future work plan and resourcing, the Chair said a meeting was due between herself, Clair Alcock (NPCC) and Alex Platts (HO). But she had experienced a recent unfortunate illness but would pick that action up and take it forward.

PABEW Discipline Sub-Committee Update 

LQC Hearings/Backlog

27. The Chair explained the Discipline Sub-Committee was held on 18 April 2023. At the meeting, the NALQC gave an update on correspondence between themselves and the Minister on some of their requests.

28. There was also a discussion on the reappointment processes. NALQC circulated a letter prior to the meeting from the Deputy CEO of the Hertfordshire OPCC that Eastern Region’s LQCs, following NALQC advice, would not be liable for reappointment. John Bassett (NALQC) took that up with APCC and APACE, and the letter was disregarded.

29. The sub-committee received stats from Carolyn Graham (APCC) on the hearings backlog, but there was a strong caveat that it was not a complete picture of the system. Mike Allen (NPCC) took an action to attempt to break down the statistics further to aid understanding.

Code of Ethics Review   

30. Also discussed was the Code of Ethics review. The Chair noted that the consultation closed on 28 April 2023, and at the point of the 18 April 2023 DSC meeting, the CoP had received 300 different responses. The main topic of discussion was the implementation of the CoE review and how it would be handled.

31. Dan Murphy (PSA) said it appeared that the CoP were responsible for drafting the changes, and the NPCC was tasked with delivering the changes. But there needed to be a view on how it would be delivered to police officers so they would be aware of what was required of them and how it would change the national decision-making model.

32. The Chair noted Marcus Griffiths (CoP) did take an action to feedback to CoP on the need to arrange an interim meeting brief for the sub-committee on the work surrounding the implementation of the Code of Ethics. There was hope DCC Sam de Reya would attend to address the staff association’s degree of concern around the work.

Police Dismissals Review

32. The Chair said there was similar unease around the dismissals review. At the meeting, the HO said any recommendations would be evidence-based. The HO had a team of dedicated analysts looking over ten years of data from pre-LQCs and post-LQCs and assessing the impact of the 2020 regs. The Chair noted it was quite a significant task. The HO expected to make recommendations for ministers towards the end of May.

Home Office Legislation Update

33. Emma Plummer (HO) explained there was no legislation for PABEW at the current time. HO had recently consulted on a few minor amendments to Annex F and U, which the Minister would likely sign off on in the next few weeks. Other than that, they were focusing on dealing with the backlog. Emma Plummer (HO) thanked Stella Brooks (NPCC) for offering to help with the Children and Families Act work and explained she had sent over the relevant materials and hoped to catch up in the next few weeks to move the work forward.

AOB/Date of next meeting

34. The date of the next meeting was scheduled for 26 July 2023