Transparency data

SAB meeting minutes: 1 July 2020

Updated 16 September 2024

Applies to England and Wales

Members Present via video conference:

Independent Chair

Elizabeth France

Secretariat

Afsana Begum

Police Federation of England and Wales (PFEW)

Alex Duncan (SAB Member) Mike Brown Joan Donnelly Gemma Lofts

Police Superintendents’ Association (PSA)

Dan Murphy (SAB Member) Eamonn Carroll

Association of Police and Crime Commissioners (APCC)

Charlotte Radford (SAB Member)

Chief Police Officers’ Staff Association (CPOSA)

Shabir Hussain (SAB Member)

National Police Chief’s Council (NPCC)

James Hurley (SAB Member) Kevin Courtney

National Association of Retired Police Officers (NARPO)

Steve Edwards (SAB Member)

Home Office (HO)

Amar Pannu Emma Plummer Sara Alderman Joshua Goodkin

Scottish Police Federation (SPF)

Calum Steele

Association of Scottish Police Superintendents (ASPS)

Craig Suttie

Police Federation Northern Ireland (PFNI)

Liam Kelly

Department of Justice, Northern Ireland (DoJNI)

Antonia Hoskins

Scottish Police Authority

Sharon Dalli

Welcome and apologies

1. The Chair welcomed members to the meeting which was held via video conference due to ongoing Covid-19. Apologies were received from SANI.

Minutes of the meeting 2 April 2020

2. Members agreed the minutes of the joint UKPPCF and SAB meeting held on 2 April 2020. Action Point 1: Secretariat to publish agreed minutes of 2 April 2020 on the webpage.

Matters arising/action log

3. The Chair went through the action log of 2 April meeting, which has been updated in the light of discussion

Key points discussed were:

Action Points 2 and 3 – James Hurley (NPCC) said that an illustrative GAD model showing the impact of 8-9% opt out on the viability of the 2015 scheme would be helpful. Action Point 2: Amar Pannu (HO) to follow up with GAD on impact of 8-9% opt out on the viability of the scheme.

The Home Office sent a copy of the template for the collection of data used to analyse the police opt our rates to Kevin Courtney and Shabir Hussain on 18 June.

Action Point 4 – The Chair asked in her quarterly letter to pension board chairs and scheme managers for the number of officers auto re-enrolled this year and the number subsequently re-opting out. One response had been received so far but as auto enrolment starts from 1 May and opt back in June, the data may not have been collected yet. The Chair said she would remind pension board chairs and scheme managers of this again in the July quarterly letter. Action Point 3: Chair to remind pension board chairs and scheme managers for the number of officers auto re-enrolled this year and the number subsequent re-opting out in quarterly letter.

Action Point 5 - Emma Plummer (HO) said PFEW forwarded documents from three years ago on honorarium provision being extended to federated ranks. As they needed a more up to date position, HO had now asked NPCC to provide more further information about the number of officers likely to be affected.

Action Point 11 – Home Office were still working on updating of the Members’ Guide for the NPPS 2006 to ensure that same sex civil partnerships were dealt with in accordance with legislation.

Action Point 12 – Home Office took matters regarding clarity of what constitutes as pensionable pay in the pension scheme regulations to lawyers and were awaiting a response.

Action Point 13 – Home Office circulated a draft communication following up on AVC switch to Utmost Life asking for comments from members.

4. The Chair went onto discuss outstanding actions from previous meetings:

Outstanding Action Point 4 - Dan Murphy (PSA) reported the FBU have issued their letter inviting various public sector organisations to become interested parties. The Staff Associations’ joint letter explaining their joining the FBU action challenging the pausing of the cost cap remedy is to be forwarded to the secretariat for circulation.

Cost Cap

5. Amar Pannu (HO) told SAB members that an announcement on the cost cap would be made at the same time as the McCloud/Sargeant consultation is published; this would be mid-July at the earliest. HO would be able to give a week notice of this and were not in a position to provide further information. James Hurley (NPCC) recognised that there would likely need to be a response/steer from the SAB in relation to the cost cap. The Chair said there might be a need for an ad-hoc meeting on this over the summer period, but once the announcement had been made the position would be clearer.

Update on McCloud Consultation and Implementation

6. The HO would aim to provide as much notice as possible of the publication date of the consultation. They would be inviting individual stakeholder groups, as well as SABs, to provide feedback directly to HO. HO would also refresh communication to support the consultation document and cost cap announcement. A high-level timeline had been provided to SAB members on 26 June as part of an action point, which outlined the timeline.

7. Amar Pannu (HO) responded to PSA queries to confirm that the consultation announcement would deal with what would happen after the remedy date. It was also confirmed that the movement in dates (from May to November) for the final declaration in the Aaron’s case, would not make a difference to the timeline for the McCloud consultation and implementation. The Home Office said to the consultation would be dealt with in parallel to the Aaron’s case.

8. James Hurley (NPCC) said it would be important for there to be coordination with HO as they expected there to be a significant volume of work arising from the consultation.

9. There was a discussion on how the SAB should plan and prepare to respond to the open consultation; members agreed that once the consultation had been published there would be a better understanding of how to respond. It was agreed that it would be sensible to hold dates to allow for three working group meetings. Action Point 4: Secretariat to schedule provisional working group meetings for end of July/August.

Post Remedy Pensions Arrangements

10. The Home Office confirmed that post remedy arrangements would also be covered in the consultation document.

Covid-19 Pension Service Provision and update on re-joiners

11. Sara Alderman (HO) reported that on 3 June, HMRC announced an extension to the easement of the tax rules requiring a one month break in service relating to Protected Pension Ages (PPA). The deadline for the cessation of the easement had been extended to 1st November 2020 for retired officers and firefighters re-employed in relation to Forces/FRAs response to the coronavirus pandemic.

12. In relation to the HMRC detailed guidance, HO have been told by HMT that it will be published once the Finance Bill receives Royal Assent (it is currently at the report stage). On the wider picture of re-joiners, HO have continued working with lawyers and need to look at data with Kevin Courtney (NPCC) on the number of people who have re-joined and what choices they make.

13. Dan Murphy (PSA) asked whether officers who re-joined in response to the Covid-19 crisis and were then encouraged to stay on to meet the uplift programme targets would be retrospectively penalised for returning to work sooner than the tax rules normally allow. HO confirmed that those officers re-joining now due to COVID-19 and taking advantage of the HMRC easement (in relation to the service gap requirement to maintain their PPA) would not be retrospectively penalised if they stayed on after 1 November. Amar Pannu (HO) will circulate a statement before the next PABEW to clarify the position. Action Point 5: Amar Pannu (HO) to circulate statement on tax relaxation for officers returning in response to the Covid-19 crisis who then carry on service.

14. Alex Duncan (PFEW) asked the HO for clarity as to whether auto-enrolment to the 2006 scheme would remain or be replaced with retrospective access to membership of the 2015 CARE Scheme? It was agreed he would send a letter to the SAB Chair setting out PFEW’s questions and concerns about the current situation. The Chair would forward this on to the Home Office and NPPC seeking answers and explanations and once a reply a reply was received she would circulate PFEW’s letter and the response to all SAB members. Action Point 6: Alex Duncan (PFEW) to send a letter to the Chair asking the Home Office to clarify the situation on auto-enrolment for re-joiners.

15. Steve Edwards (NARPO) described a scenario where an individual had booked and arranged to get married but that marriage ceremony was cancelled by the Registrar as a result of the Government restriction placed on the holding of marriage ceremonies. The question raised was if the individual died before marriage would his partner be entitled to the appropriate widows’ pension under the PPS 1987? Amar Pannu (HO) said they had considered this point with MOJ but as circumstances had moved on and marriages were now allowed to take place, this could be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Pension Abatement – examples of unintended consequences

16. Letters from the PFEW on the treatment of officers who re-join the service, and the arrangements being made regarding abatement of their pensions, had been circulated to members. This matter had been the subject of much discussion since some forces – notably the Metropolitan Police Service – had been encouraging officers to return to service during the COVID-19 emergency. Alex Duncan (PFEW) was seeking agreement that there was evidence of pension abatement rules impacting on the ability to recruit. Amar Pannu (HO) said this would be considered further as and when compelling evidence was presented.

17. Kevin Courtney (NPCC) did not see this having an impact on HMT as circumstances had now changed since the police service actively wanted officers to re-join. He said there was data on forces’ appetite for using re-joiners but there were impediments such as gaps in service, abatement and auto-enrolment which had been only partially debated. Alex Duncan (PFEW) said this issue needed to be progressed or there could be evidence not being presented which might prove to be a real impediment to the uplift programme and which the SAB might have been expected to draw to the attention of Government.

18. Shabir Hussain (CPOSA) made a comparison between the NHS and Police service as retired NHS staff re-joining were not required to abate their pensions. HO said that the positions were not comparable as pension abatement operated differently in the health service. He quoted recommendation 10 from the Hutton report and reminded the meeting that the government said there would be no ‘cherry picking’ therefore he requested an explanation as to why it had not been applied in full to the police schemes. Action Point 7: HO to provide explanation why pension abatement had not been applied in full to the police schemes in accordance to recommendation 10 from the Hutton report.

TPR Survey – Nick Gannon

19. Nick Gannon (TPR) presented their Governance and Administration key findings from surveys run in November and December 2019. Full findings were expected to be published in the next month. He explained that as a regulator, TPR’s aim was to help pension boards and schemes, especially through the testing time of McCloud/Sargeant. TPR would ensure messages were being received and maintain dialogues. James Hurley (NPCC) said the results were a positive set and that it was good to see McCloud/Sargeant identified as an area of risk for the year ahead.

Report from Scottish SAB and from Northern Ireland’s SABs

20. Antonia Hoskins (DoJNI) advised that Scottish Government and the Home Office had only recently been advised that Westminster made The Victims’ Payments Regulations 2020 to acknowledge those living with serious and continuing disablement from physical and/or psychological injuries due to a Troubles-related incident. This scheme is open to anyone in the UK who was injured through no fault of their own between (1 Jan 1966 and 12 April 2010) who are living with the effects of either physical or psychological injury. The scheme would be run by a NI department and while applications should have opened on 29 May 2020, the scheme will not open until funding has been secured. These Regulations include a clause at reg 19 (2)(d) to allow for deduction from the Police Service of Northern Ireland and Police Service of Northern Ireland Reserve (Injury Benefit) Regulations 2006 in respect of injury received in the execution of duty.

Matters for SAB decision:

a) Consistency on administration across the schemes:

Consideration of injury benefits cases

21. At the last quarterly meeting Alex Duncan (PFEW) highlighted the that the number of judicial reviews that PFEW was having to take in relation to injury benefit cases was increasing. They were expecting to produce a paper highlighting the major areas and issues causing this for the next quarterly meeting. Kevin Courtney (NPCC) said Andy Fittes (NPCC NRT) had reviewed previous activities around injury benefit and ill health cases which were long running issues. They accepted the difficulties with the way current regulations were framed and overall there was a need for a review in order to have a modern set of rules and procedures that could apply to today’s circumstances. It was decided the SAB would discuss the matter as a broad pensions issues and it would then be taken to PABEW to be dealt with. Action Point 8: PFEW to produce paper on judicial reviews in relation injury benefit cases for October quarterly meeting.

AOB / Date of next meeting

22. Alex Duncan (PFEW) said that there were circulars from 2001 that were causing some confusion about how pension sharing orders are implemented. HO said they would review these circulars to see if they could be updated and made more user friendly. Action Point 9: HO to review circular from 2001 re pension sharing orders.

23. Dan Murphy (PSA) had written to the manager at Equiniti regarding his members’ concerns on annual allowance and pension statement but had not received any responses. He would be writing to the relevant pension board providing all correspondence he has had including communications Kevin Courtney had when dealing with the issue.

24. Amar Pannu (HO) informed members a new Head of Police and Firefighters’ Pension had been appointed, Tahmina Ahmad. They were also in the process of recruiting a replacement for Angela Chadha.

Date of next meeting

25. 6 October 2020 by video conference.

PABEW Secretariat

13 July 2020

	Actions	Date of the Meeting	Who & when to be completed by:	Status – to be updated and re-circulated before the next meeting
1	Secretariat to publish agreed minutes of 2 April 2020 on the webpage.	01 July 2020	Secretariat	Completed
2	Amar Pannu (HO) to follow up with GAD on impact of 8-9% opt out on the viability of the scheme.	01 July 2020	Amar Pannu, (Home Office) by 6 October.	Completed A follow up action was logged at the next quarterly meeting.
3	Chair to remind pension board chairs and scheme managers for the number of officers auto re-enrolled this year and the number subsequent re-opting out in quarterly letter.	01 July 2020	Chair	Completed Reminder sent in quarterly letter dated 15 July.
4	Secretariat to schedule provisional working group meetings for end of July/August.	01 July 2020	Secretariat	Completed
5	Amar Pannu (HO) to circulate statement on tax relaxation for officers returning in response to the Covid-19 crisis who then carry on service.	01 July 2020	Amar Pannu (Home Office) by 16 July	Completed. HO emailed SAB members on 17/07/20 - retired officers who re-joined the Police to support the Force’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic and benefited from the PPA tax rule change would not be retrospectively taxed after the 1st November deadline.
6	Alex Duncan (PFEW) to send a letter to the Chair asking for Home Office for clarification on auto-enrolment for re-joiners.	01 July 2020	Alex Duncan (PFEW)	Completed The letter was forwarded to HO and awaiting response.
7	HO to provide explanation why pension abatement had not been applied in full to the police schemes in accordance to recommendation 10 from the Hutton report.	01 July 2020	Home Office	Ongoing
8	PFEW to produce paper on judicial reviews in relation injury benefit cases for October quarterly meeting.	01 July 2020	PFEW by 29 September.	Ongoing This would be on agenda at the next quarterly meeting in January 2021.
9	HO to review circular from 2001 re pension sharing orders.	01 July 2020	Home Office	Ongoing
OUTSTANDING FROM PREVIOUS MEETING
3	Kevin Courtney (NPCC) and Shabir Hussain (CPOSA) to look at the opt-out database with Home Office.	02 April 2020	Kevin Courtney (NPCC) and Shabir Hussain (CPOSA)	Completed Shabir has provided guidance to analysts.
5	Home Office Pay Lead to look into honorarium provision and it being extended to federated ranks.	02 April 2020	Home Office	Completed The NPCC’s National Reward Team are working with the Police Federation to develop a business case
11	Home Office to amend the guidance re civil partnership in accordance with legislation.	02 April 2020	Home Office	Ongoing
12	Home Office to take matters regarding clarity of what constitutes as pensionable pay in the pension scheme regulations to lawyers.	02 April 2020	Home Office	Ongoing Currently with HO lawyers.
2	Home Office to provide guidance on scheme sanction charges to secretariat and Chair.	13 January 2020	Home Office	Ongoing HO are considering the legal risks involved with the potential options and will make a statement when they have agreed an approach with HMT.
4	Staff Associations’ joint letter explaining their joining the FBU action challenging the pausing of the cost cap remedy to be sent directly to Secretariat, who would share with members.	13 January 2020	Staff Associations and Secretariat	Ongoing The FBU have now issued their letter.
6	Home Office to look at previous advice provided on re-joiners with HMT.	13 January 2020	Home Office	Ongoing
2	Wadha Salah to look at ways to make the Home Office communication document for policy and regulatory changes easier to search for online.	2 April 2019	Home Office	Completed HO are currently considering the types content/information to upload on a webpage.